Why atheism doesn't make any sense

[Stormalv]

Okay, let's first make sure we use the same definition here. By atheists, I mean people who believe that God doesn't exist. By God, I mean a conscious, intelligent creator of our universe.

The reasoning is really simple. It boils down to this, consciousness can't suddenly come out of a universe that is dead. Intelligent can't suddenly appear out of a universe that is stupid. Something can't come out of nothing. It doesn't make any sense that consciousness, your Self, the experiencer, can come simply out of electronic passages in the brain.

Don't agree with me? Just think about it, it's purely illogical. It's even more illogical than believing the earth is flat. Just -think- about it. It's totally impossible for me to understand how people have actually thought this thing through and settles on that explanation. To believe that your awareness is merely electrical impulses, that it ceases to exist as soon as your brain stops functioning. As if you yourself is just some illusion.

However, if you look at it the opposite way, that matter and universal laws and energy patterns were created by a mind, the only constant thing that exists, what we really are, there are no philosophical paradoxes left. At least for me. If someone still disagree, I might as well give up, I can't explain it any better than this. I just don't get how people can believe that God doesn't exist.

[boagie]

Stormalv,

Who's defination of god would you like to deal with, modern physics is indicating presently that empty space is indeed not empty, it is possiable that there is no such thing as nothingness. That fact is our very day understanding is limited by our biology, if ultimatie reality is something that you think you know, you need to get out more, apparent reality is a biological readout that we clearly know to be inadequate, that is why it is called apparent and not ultimate reality. Theism is a simplistic answer that comforts the faint of heart.

[William]

Originally Posted by boagie

Stormalv,

"Who's defination of god would you like to deal with......"?

Boagie my friend, those ten words identify the problem. As if we could "identify" what God is. The simple truth is we just are not that smart, no matter how much we think we are. In any effort to "define" God, we really get screwed up. Because we don't understand, we then should just "dismiss" it, is, IMO just a case of extreme egotism. I have tried to come up with another word that would better illustrate the Atheist and for the life of me I cannot think of one other than that of one, who for reasons for which I cannot begin to understand, who cannot imagine anyone better than themselves. Now that is true, there is no one "better" than another. The irony is for any individual to profess "all knowledge", which is what one would be implying by believing "there is no God in any context imaginable" is in and of itself proclaiming a "pseudo" knowledge that leads them to believe they are "better" than anyone else as they know all there is to know. I fully understand agnosticism (if that is even a word) and it make's absolute sense to me. But for anyone to arbitrarily just say "no God" is an arrogance that I cannot perceive. As our friend stormaly mentioned, it makes no sense at all. None whatsoever.

IMO,
William

[boagie]

Neither the self assured atheist nor the babblling theist are on logical ground, if one is to shut up they both need to. Sweet silence!!

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by Stormalv

The reasoning is really simple. It boils down to this, consciousness can't suddenly come out of a universe that is dead. Intelligent can't suddenly appear out of a universe that is stupid. Something can't come out of nothing. It doesn't make any sense that consciousness, your Self, the experiencer, can come simply out of electronic passages in the brain.

This is a good faith-based argument. However, it makes some assumptions that are difficult to come to terms with. It cannot be proven, yet one cannot disprove it either. So where does that take the argument? I would recommend familiarizing yourself, or at least reading, this before you start making too many blanket statements about what is and isn't possible: Critical Thinking Field Guide (Skeptical Inquirer Winter 1990)

Originally Posted by Stormalv

Don't agree with me? Just think about it, it's purely illogical. It's even more illogical than believing the earth is flat. Just -think- about it. It's totally impossible for me to understand how people have actually thought this thing through and settles on that explanation. To believe that your awareness is merely electrical impulses, that it ceases to exist as soon as your brain stops functioning.

And this is a key point, apparently. It's impossible for you to understand. Not me. And I have thought about it. For about 40 years now. I still don't have the confidence to make these sorts of statements. Perhaps I lack faith. Perhaps I'm just stupid, which is the conclusion reached by many about those who don't embrace their ideas/ideologies.

Originally Posted by Stormalv

As if you yourself is just some illusion.

If you know where the self exists, as a solid, identifiable, tangible entity, let me know. I'm still looking.

Originally Posted by Stormalv

If someone still disagree, I might as well give up, I can't explain it any better than this. I just don't get how people can believe that God doesn't exist.

Fortunately, your continued existence does not depend upon you "getting it." If you believe in God, then God exists. For you. Personal belief, however, does not imply universal truth. Other people's mileage may vary. Give them the courtesy of letting them hold their own reins.

__________
"Convictions create convicts." --Robert Anton Wilson

[William]

Originally Posted by boagie

Neither the self asured atheist nor the bablling theist are on logical ground, if one is to shut up they both need to. Sweet silence!!

Babling? Self-assured? Interesting how you put that. No condescension here? Come on boagie, you can do better than that.

William

[ariciunervos]

Originally Posted by Stormalv

The reasoning is really simple. It boils down to this, consciousness can't suddenly come out of a universe that is dead.

First of all, what you type here is not reasoning, it's an affirmation. You say life "can't suddenly come out of a universe that is dead." Please do elaborate. What was the reasoning process, step by step, that led you to be absolutely 100% certain that a living cell can not appear naturally from spontaneous chemical reactions. By the way, "other people told me so" isn't reasoning, it's parroting.

Secondly, I have a few questions. If tomorrow a scientist creates, from inanimate matter, a living cell capable of evolution and ultimately becoming human, will you give up the idea of a supernatural being ? What if a scientist finds a way to interrupt the particle-antiparticle quantum events that make empty space not so empty and effectively create matter "out of nothing" ? Will you bring him goats and your first born ?

To me it seems your "simple reasoning", as you put it, goes like this :

I can't explain how life appeared therefore God did it. Or
I don't know how life appeared therefore God did it. Or
I don't know something therefore I know God exists. Or
I don't know something therefore I know something. Wait, what ?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[boagie]

[quote=William;28077]Babling? Self-assured? Interesting how you put that. No condescension here? Come on boagie, you can do better than that.

William

Which do you consider I am condescending to, the self assured or the babbling, or are you offended for both? What do you have against sweet silence?

[TickTockMan]

This is one of my favorite songs . . . .
Frank Zappa: Dumb all over

[TickTockMan]

[quote=William;28071]

Originally Posted by boagie

Stormalv,

"Who's defination of god would you like to deal with......"?

Boagie my friend, those ten words identify the problem. As if we could "identify" what God is. The simple truth is we just are not that smart, no matter how much we think we are. In any effort to "define" God, we really get screwed up. Because we don't understand, we then should just "dismiss" it, is, IMO just a case of extreme egotism. I have tried to come up with another word that would better illustrate the Atheist and for the life of me I cannot think of one other than that of one, who for reasons for which I cannot begin to understand, who cannot imagine anyone better than themselves. Now that is true, there is no one "better" than another. The irony is for any individual to profess "all knowledge", which is what one would be implying by believing "there is no God in any context imaginable" is in and of itself proclaiming a "pseudo" knowledge that leads them to believe they are "better" than anyone else as they know all there is to know. I fully understand agnosticism (if that is even a word) and it make's absolute sense to me. But for anyone to arbitrarily just say "no God" is an arrogance that I cannot perceive. As our friend stormaly mentioned, it makes no sense at all. None whatsoever.

IMO,
William

Are you really suggesting that disbelief is a function of ego, that Atheists don't believe in God because they won't/can't tolerate the idea that there might be someone/something better than they are?