Miracles

[Victor Eremita]

What constitutes miracles? I think Hume got it right when he defined it as the transgression of the laws of nature, and that when in doubt of whether there really was a transgression or if an event can be explained without falling back on that transgression, favour the latter.

The miracle that most preoccupies me is the resurrection of Jesus; as claimed by the Apostles. The New Testament has records of the 12 Apostles witnessing Jesus' image after his death. But is it something that they all agreed to make up to inspire others to Jesus' teachings? Where is the proof other than the testmonies of Matthew, John, Paul, and the other 9?

[Didymos Thomas]

The miracle that most preoccupies me is the resurrection of Jesus; as claimed by the Apostles.

I think we have to consider what sort of claim the authors were making. Scripture is not a history book; these are not accounts of particular events, they are not written to transmit statements of fact.

Try reading the accounts as allegory.

But is it something that they all agreed to make up to inspire others to Jesus' teachings? Where is the proof other than the testmonies of Matthew, John, Paul, and the other 9?

What sort of proof could we ask for? Proof of what?

No one asks for proof that Dante traveled through Hell, Purgatory and then to Paradise. Such a question would miss the point.

I also think Hume was spot on in his treatment of miracles. The problem is that we, and even in Hume's day, read accounts of miracles, in the Bible for example, as modern people. We ignore the myth, and think of everything in terms of reason. When Homer speaks of the gods interfering with man, we do not object that such accounts defy reason. It doesn't matter that the accounts defy reason; the accounts are myth.

[Victor Eremita]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

I think we have to consider what sort of claim the authors were making. Scripture is not a history book; these are not accounts of particular events, they are not written to transmit statements of fact. Try reading the accounts as allegory.

Try telling that to the millions who assemble in Vatican City....

I've personally tried reading them as allegory, but with phrases like "I have seen him" and "on the mountain in Galilee, he appeared before us and spoke to us"; it's hard to read it as allegory. Or rather, it's hard to see that the apostles meant it as allegory

[Didymos Thomas]

Try telling that to the millions who assemble in Vatican City....

Today? Yeah, it can be a tough crowd.

I've personally tried reading them as allegory, but with phrases like "I have seen him" and "on the mountain in Galilee, he appeared before us and spoke to us"; it's hard to read it as allegory. Or rather, it's hard to see that the apostles meant it as allegory

Do you have trouble reading Dante or Milton, ect as allegory?

As for the apostles - I think their supposed authorship is another level of meaning. It's hard to imagine many of them even being able to write. As a matter of historical authorship, I do not feel comfortable saying that any of the apostles were authors of anything. But it is part of the mythology. Besides, the actual author's name is unimportant. We can still distinguish between the various authors without their personal identity.

[Holiday20310401]

I want to understand your view of the Bible Didymos, because, I mean, why read such stuff?

I think the bible is a joke.

Whats wrong with reasoning when it comes to religion with you. I mean spirituality is such a .. well... I just don't understand it.

I don't understand why people think the world is going to end in 2012. I don't understand why people fast as a tradition. I don't understand why people light a certain number of candles for such and such.

If the meaning originally has become obselete then why continue to hold a brittle concept. Why not create a new tradition with meaning like a titanium carbon alloy?

Is this some spiritual greatness? No, its fear of change!

The believe in spirits is kinda useless to me. Believing that they hold any potential upon us is crazy, and that we can influence them, lol.

Obviously I lack a spiritual side and you've found yours. So plz, elaborate.

[Didymos Thomas]

I want to understand your view of the Bible Didymos, because, I mean, why read such stuff?

There are many answers to this question. First, even if you see the Bible as a joke, you cannot deny the immense influence of the book on history and literature, the arts. It's a significant text.

I think the bible is a joke.

There are elements of humor in the Bible.

Whats wrong with reasoning when it comes to religion with you. I mean spirituality is such a .. well... I just don't understand it.

There's nothing wrong with reasoning when it comes to religion. The problem occurs when someone relies entirely on reason when approaching religion.

Just as someone would miss the point of Dante if they analyze the book with sharp scientific criticism, so too will a reader miss the point of the Bible if the reader uses scientific criticism.

For example, let's look at Jesus being tempted by Satan in the desert. Our scientific mind immediately recognizes that someone cannot survive without food for forty days. So, we should gather that the story is not literal and that scientific concerns are moot. Now we can read the story and meditate on the deeper meaning of the tale - something to the effect of 'preoccupation with material wealth and power are detrimental to one's psychology'.

I don't understand why people think the world is going to end in 2012.

Neither do I. Some people believe this because they have taken scripture and read the scripture in an insanely literal fashion. As a result, they take mythology as literally true and end up with silly beliefs - beliefs which will only hurt the believer.

A good case is the Millerites. Their leader read Revelations in such a literal way, and made calculations from the figures in Revelations to predict the Second Coming. Sure enough, the day came near, believers gave away everything they owned and went to the hills to await Jesus. Jesus never came.
They made the mistake of reading an allegorical document in a literal manner.

I don't understand why people fast as a tradition.

For the most part, people fast in accordance with their faith tradition as a way to cultivate compassion for the people who go hungry every day. They fast to better understand that suffering, and to better appreciate the food they have on a regular basis. I mean, if you never go hungry, you never appreciate your food.

What's the line from Don Quixote? ''Hunger is the best sauce''. Something like that.

I don't understand why people light a certain number of candles for such and such.

All sorts of reasons. It's part of the ceremony. A way to physically involve yourself in worship, in practice. Instead of just thinking, you are physically taking part in spiritual practice.

That's the general idea, anyway.

If the meaning originally has become obselete then why continue to hold a brittle concept. Why not create a new tradition with meaning like a titanium carbon alloy?

Insightful question! The answer is one you may not have expected - there is no reason to hold onto an obsolete idea. This is why religion changes over time; religion adapts to meet different and new social circumstances.

But no idea is always obsolete, or obsolete every where at once. Some times ideas lose favor, only to reappear later in a new form. I do not think obsolete is the best word. It's just that some ideas or approaches to religion are more or less relevant to different people at different times.

Is this some spiritual greatness? No, its fear of change!

Yes, fear of change often bothers people. But this is true in politics, in art, in everything, religion included. But certainly not limited to religion.

It's funny, really. The conservative spirit is all about looking to the past in an idealized way as the model for the present and future. But the conservatives who fear change so much are a product of the change.

Obviously I lack a spiritual side and you've found yours. So plz, elaborate.

You do not lack a spiritual side. And I'm not sure I've found mine. I'm looking for it, though. Can't hurt to look, right?

[Holiday20310401]

Well perhaps, and I do like the idea of the suffering. I think it is key to having a healthy mind. People lack that kind of thing at school. I'm not saying to punish, no. Suffering to me, is the potential to be punished for no apparent reason. Thats the idea that makes people see the light in other people and not act like jerks. Even the gifted students are arrogant, though due to their character, there is still the blatant stupidity.

There is only intellect on the mathematical scale for most gifted students, and the noticing of prestige evokes their arrogance. But suffering changes their perspective, in such a healthy way. I'm sure you understand how, it is difficult to explain.

But I do not see health or sanity in dedicating negative virtue to purposed customs. Rather such influences should be the course of nature. Let experience happen rather than try to make such happen.

[Khethil]

Originally Posted by Victor Eremita

What constitutes miracles?

When events take place who's underlying causes we don't fully understand, and their irony, wonder or meaning coincides with our emotions. We say "Woot! Look, a miracle!".

Throughout history, naturally-occurring events have been perceived as miracles (as if they've been divined by something supernatural). All actions/events have their causes.. What I find particularly interesting is that it appears as our knowledge of the physical world increases, so does the frequency with which the claims of miracles decrease.

Mix superstition and causes not obviously-apparent and poof: A miracle!

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by Khethil

What I find particularly interesting is that it appears as our knowledge of the physical world increases, so does the frequency with which the claims of miracles decrease.

Woot! Look, a miracle!

[boagie]

Hi all!!


I would take acception to the spiritual life as knowledge of the supernatural. Spiritual life is the result of your natural life, it is the relations you have in this life, it is the love, compassion and respect that comes to you as a result of meaningful relations. It is the vitality of the individual in relation to his physcial environment, his sense of wonder, his sense of awe and his sense of respect for his place in the natural order of things. A man with no sense of wonder is a poor man, though he might have material wealth. To negate the value of this world in favour of an imaginary world is truly a violation of life itself. When the great mystery of life, of being and being in the world is lost to a belief system, it closes the door to wonder, the door to spirituality. To entertain the idea of miracles is just one effort to close the door on wonder.