The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

[boagie]

Hello everyone,

All actions are FIRST selfish, that does not mean that an action cannot be altruistic in degree, it just means there is no such thing as pure altruism.

"It is true that actions can be altruistic, I admitted that. However, this altruism is weak and ultimately self-interested, and cannot be moral, and that is the real crux of the issue."quote--MFTP

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Can you fathom a will an intention that is not generated from our own values and interests? Certainly if our will or intent rests with someone else's ends, we must admit that their ends are the same as our own.

Well, sometimes I want to help others at my own expense, and sometimes I don't want to to help others at my own expense, but I do it anyway, because I think it is the right thing to do.

But, in neither case am I being selfish, since I am not doing it in order to gain anything for myself.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

Hello everyone,

All actions are FIRST selfish, that does not mean that an action cannot be altruistic in degree, it just means there is no such thing as pure altruism.

"It is true that actions can be altruistic, I admitted that. However, this altruism is weak and ultimately self-interested, and cannot be moral, and that is the real crux of the issue."quote--MFTP

Well, sometimes I want to help others at my own expense, and sometimes I don't want to to help others at my own expense, but I do it anyway, because I think it is the right thing to do.

But, in neither case am I being selfish, since I am not doing it in order to gain anything for myself.

Why anyone would say that the Navy Seal's sacrifice of his life for his fellow Seals was. "ultimately weak and self-interested" is beyond me. It was neither weak, nor self-interested, ultimately or not. Don't facts matter to you, or is only your theory that matters to you? Isn't your theory refuted by that one fact of the sacrifice of the Navy Seal? If not, then why not?

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Well, sometimes I want to help others at my own expense, and sometimes I don't want to to help others at my own expense, but I do it anyway, because I think it is the right thing to do.

But, in neither case am I being selfish, since I am not doing it in order to gain anything for myself.

kennethamy,

"If you are going to try to argue that I cannot will myself to act in a way that disregards my own interests, for the sake of another, I'm going to have to ask for evidence of this.quote

If you make yourself act in a way that disreguards your own apparent interests, is that not your will doing the disreguarding action, is that not now your interest. You see, you cannot escape responsibility for your own actions.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

kennethamy,

"If you are going to try to argue that I cannot will myself to act in a way that disregards my own interests, for the sake of another, I'm going to have to ask for evidence of this.quote

If you make yourself act in a way that disreguards your own apparent interests, is that not your will doing the disreguarding action, is that not now your interest. You see, you cannot escape responsibility for your own actions.

Of course I can decide to act in a way that disregards my own interests. That is exactly what the Navy Seal did. But what has that to do with it? That fact that he "willed" to sacrifice himself doesn't show that he was selfish. It shows just the opposite! That he was unselfish and altruistic.

Sure it is I who is doing the disregarding. But how does that make my action selfish? If I did the disregarding of my own interests unwillingly (at the point of a gun) would that make my action unselfish? It is the very fact that I am sacrificing my own interests of my own free will and voluntarily that makes my action unselfish and altruistic. It is my very willing to sacrifice my own interests to others which would make my action unselfish. That's what it is to be act unselfishly, voluntarily to do something at your own expense to help others. What did you think it meant to act unselfishly, anyway? To be forced to help others at your own expense?

"Philosophers raise the dust themselves, and then complain that they cannot see". George Berkeley

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

Of course I can decide to act in a way that disregards my own interests. That is exactly what the Navy Seal did. But what has that to do with it? That fact that he "willed" to sacrifice himself doesn't show that he was selfish. It shows just the opposite! That he was unselfish and altruistic.

Sure it is I who is doing the disregarding. But how does that make my action selfish? If I did the disregarding of my own interests unwillingly (at the point of a gun) would that make my action unselfish? It is the very fact that I am sacrificing my own interests of my own free will and voluntarily that makes my action unselfish and altruistic. It is my very willing to sacrifice my own interests to others which would make my action unselfish. That's what it is to be act unselfishly, voluntarily to do something at your own expense to help others. What did you think it meant to act unselfishly, anyway? To be forced to help others at your own expense?

"Philosophers raise the dust themselves, and then complain that they cannot see". George Berkeley

kennethamy.

I can only suggest that you PONDER my last post and the posts of Mr Fight The Power. In the last post it was made clear how even an altruistic action is of neccessity first selfish, there simply is no other possiablity, it is the way humanity functions.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

kennethamy.

I can only suggest that you ponder my last post and the posts of Mr Fight The Power. In the last post it was made clear how even an altruistic action is of neccessity first selfish, there simply is no other possiablity, it is the way humanity functions.

But look into a dictionary, and you will find that "altruism" is necessarily not selfish. You just define it as selfish because you define all voluntary action as selfish action, and altruistic actions are voluntary. But why are all voluntary actions selfish actions? That you do not say. And neither does the other chap. Of course you think that all altruistic actions are selfish, since if they were not voluntary, they would not be actions in the first place, and you define all (voluntary) actions as selfish. It is just one interlocking system of your own (and MFTP's) own interlocking system of definitions which have nothing whatsoever with the ways we use the term "selfish". Since all actions are voluntary, all altruistic actions are voluntary. But that does not make all altruistic actions selfish (just because they are voluntary) To say so is simply to define altruism out of existence.

Why not just say that there are selfish altruistic actions (like the Navy Seal's) if that makes you feel better? I will just call those actions. "altruistic" if you don't mind. It is simpler, and more accurate that way.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

But look into a dictionary, and you will find that a"altruism" is necessarily not selfish. You just define it as selfish because you define all voluntary action as selfish action, and altruistic actions are voluntary. But why are all voluntary actions selfish actions? That you do not say. And neither does the other chap. Of course you think that all altruistic actions are selfish, since if they were not voluntary, they would not be actions in the first place, and you define all (voluntary) actions as selfish. It is just one interlocking system of your own (and MFTP's) own interlocking system of definitions which have nothing whatsoever with the ways we use the term "selfish". Since all actions are voluntary, all altruistic actions are voluntary. But that does not make all altruistic actions selfish (just because they are voluntary) To say so is simply to define altruism out of existence.

Why not just say that there are selfish altruistic actions (like the Navy Seal's) if that makes you feel better? I will just call those actions. "altruistic" if you don't mind. It is simpler, and more accurate that way.

kennethamy,

The answer is in the previous post by myself and Mr Fight The Power, just ponder it before renewing your stance.


"Can you fathom a will an intention that is not generated from our own values and interests? Certainly if our will or intent rests with someone else's ends, we must admit that their ends are the same as our own."quote MFTP

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

kennethamy,

The answer is in the previous post by myself and Mr Fight The Power, just ponder it before renewing your stance.


"Can you fathom a will an intention that is not generated from our own values and interests? Certainly if our will or intent rests with someone else's ends, we must admit that their ends are the same as our own."quote MFTP

But so what? The Seal's sacrifice of his life for his fellows was "generated from his own values and interests". And his "values and interests" led him to sacrifice his life. And that was clearly an unselfish and altruistic action. To say the least? The end of the others was to live. But the Seal gave up his goal (his life) so that they could live. So how were their ends the same as his own. Answer, they were not. He was willing to die for them. They wanted to live. End of story.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

But so what? The Seal's sacrifice of his life for his fellows was "generated from his own values and interests". And his "values and interests" led him to sacrifice his life. And that was clearly an unselfish and altruistic action. To say the least? The end of the others was to live. But the Seal gave up his goal (his life) so that they could live. So how were their ends the same as his own. Answer, they were not. He was willing to die for them. They wanted to live. End of story.

kennethamy,

If you make yourself act in a way that disreguards your own apparent interests, is that not your will doing the disreguarding action, is that not now your interest. You see, you cannot escape responsibility for your own actions.