The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

I don't think you understand. It was the person who ran out of gas who was distressed. Wouldn't you be? The person who helped, was inconvenienced, but that is just what was nice about him.
Look, it isn't such a big deal to go out of your way to drive someone to a gas station, and then drive him back to his car. Why would someone have to be a psychopath to do that? Maybe he is just being nice. Has the motive of just being nice been overlooked by the psychological community? Why do you think so. But, suppose it has been, so much the worse for the psychological community.

Kennethamy,

I apologize for getting upset with you.It dawned upon me it is my own frustration in not be able to comminicate with you.Please do accept my apology.

Think about it this way, very individual is the centre of their own universe, the universe the individual finds himself in is full of objects, only through indentification with, does the subject have compassion for said object/s. People too are objects, taking up both space and time, with no identification with, those people remain largely objects to this said individual. The drama of what modivates this individual after the initial stimulus of [circumstance] takes place entirely within the said subject. The circumstance itself has no meaning that the subject does not give it, the individual is subject and the physical world is object.All meaning is given by the subject, meaning that all individual value judgements,morals,ethics ect...are all subjective.The decision to act is not determined out there in the outer world,the objective world,it is ALL subjective.One must be moved within to modivate action in the world.

[Justin]

I think something here is overlooked. In Twain's book, "What is Man", the above scenario can easily be seen as just a nice guy doing a nice thing. However, people do nice things to help each other. Out of the kindness in a persons heart, they give freely of themselves.... life is a box of chocolates.

Why do you do the things you do?

.... Think about it for a moment. Take a good look at everything you do in your life, and ask yourself again... Why do I do the things I do?

Why?...

...Why do I choose to do the things I do?

Why do I listen to the music?
Why do like to golf?
Why do I watch football?
Why do I always pick up hitch hikers?
Why do I love people?
Why do I donate to charities?

The above are examples to get us thinking. The BIG question here is WHY?

Well, that's very easy... because... It makes us feel good!

It's reciprocal. Most people do things out of the kindness of their heart because it makes themselves feel good. If it made you feel bad, you wouldn't do it.

Look at everything in life and everything you do. You do what you do because it makes you feel good!

Again, cause not effect. Sure, it's an entirely different way of looking at it but it makes perfect sense. Couple it with the teachings of Jesus and many enlightened individuals throughout history, it really makes sense.

We do the things we do because it makes us feel good! Why are we here? What is our purpose. What is our life's mission statement? The majority of everyone I have ever met... All of them. Seek peace-of-mind and contentment. Therefore we execute our lives in accordance with the demands of Our Spirit.

Everyone in this room, please raise your hand if you seek peace of mind and contentment! We want to know truth so we can be content and have peace of mind.

a quote from Twain's book:

"Our consciences take no notice of pain inflicted upon others until it reaches a point where it gives pain to us."

This is a great topic. The difficulty is that some people live of the world and for the world without recognizing the greater I AM. They have little or no awareness of their own essence.

[boagie]

Hi Justin!

"Well, that's very easy... because... It makes us feel good!"

It is true it makes you feel good, many times by relieveing the discomfort of not feeling good due to the given circumstance. It is all subjective, all the psychology of the individual. "It makes us feel good," but why does it make you feel good, it feels good because it is serveing a value held by the subject.

"It's reciprocal. Most people do things out of the kindness of their heart because it makes themselves feel good. If it made you feel bad, you wouldn't do it."

Obviously,the same princples are at work across the board

"Look at everything in life and everything you do. You do what you do because it makes you feel good! "

Again why does it make you feel good?

"Again, cause not effect. Sure, it's an entirely different way of looking at it but it makes perfect sense. Couple it with the teachings of Jesus and many enlightened individuals throughout history, it really makes sense."

I believe you are mistaken here, feeling good is a product of your actions,feeling good is not cause,it is effect,it might be said to be the goal of the actions of the individual.What motivates is a value,a personal belief,the terms of ones self image.

a quote from Twain's book:

Quote:

"Our consciences take no notice of pain inflicted upon others until it reaches a point where it gives pain to us."

The means by which the pain reaches us is through identification with, this is the foundation of all morality.

This is a great topic. The difficulty is that some people live of the world and for the world without recognizing the greater I AM. They have little or no awareness of their own essence.

Justin, this is quite a statement, would you like to expand on what you believe is your essence, a rational explanation. What is this I AM that most people do not grasp?

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Justin

Well, that's very easy... because... It makes us feel good!

It's reciprocal. Most people do things out of the kindness of their heart because it makes themselves feel good. If it made you feel bad, you wouldn't do it.

I don't think that is true. People have a variety of motives for doing what they do. And some of the things people do make them feel bad. For example, when I was much younger, my aunt went to the hospital. I went to visit her, but I simply hated, and still hate going to a hospital. I makes me feel ill to do so. Furthermore, to tell you the truth, I didn't even like my aunt. She was quite mean, and nasty. So, why did I go to visit her. Well, I believed that it was the right thing to do. That it was an obligation. So I did not visit my aunt because it made me feel good. On the contrary, I felt terrible. I did not (in the worst way) want to visit her. But I just believed it was my duty to visit her. I visited her out of a sense of duty. So you must be wrong. I did it although it made me feel bad to do it. Nowadays I sometimes have to go to funerals. They make me feel awful. But sometimes I have to do it, because I am a member of the family. and I really have no choice. I can tell you that I don't attend funerals because it makes me feel good. It makes me feel just awful.

Have you gone to funerals? Does it make you feel good to go to funerals? I doubt it. But you go anyway, don't you? So how can you say that you go to funerals because it makes you feel good?

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

I don't think that is true. People have a variety of motives for doing what they do. And some of the things people do make them feel bad. For example, when I was much younger, my aunt went to the hospital. I went to visit her, but I simply hated, and still hate going to a hospital. I makes me feel ill to do so. Furthermore, to tell you the truth, I didn't even like my aunt. She was quite mean, and nasty. So, why did I go to visit her. Well, I believed that it was the right thing to do. That it was an obligation. So I did not visit my aunt because it made me feel good. On the contrary, I felt terrible. I did not (in the worst way) want to visit her. But I just believed it was my duty to visit her. I visited her out of a sense of duty. So you must be wrong. I did it although it made me feel bad to do it. Nowadays I sometimes have to go to funerals. They make me feel awful. But sometimes I have to do it, because I am a member of the family. and I really have no choice. I can tell you that I don't attend funerals because it makes me feel good. It makes me feel just awful.

Have you gone to funerals? Does it make you feel good to go to funerals? I doubt it. But you go anyway, don't you? So how can you say that you go to funerals because it makes you feel good?

kennethamy,


The point is what modivated you was your belief in duty, the right thing to do, or what is the proper behaviour for a given situtation. No one likes funerals we go out of respect and careing for those left behind, and perhaps because it is the proper/expected and honourable behaviour. You have stated here your self that you did not really wish to do something, so, look at what made you do it, that is what we are talking about. It was unpleasant yet you did it, why? Because it would have made you uneasy not to behaved as you THOUGHT YOU SHOULD. Can you not see where this would be self serveing to the pysche of the subject?

[Justin]

Originally Posted by boagie

I believe you are mistaken here, feeling good is a product of your actions,feeling good is not cause,it is effect,it might be said to be the goal of the actions of the individual.What motivates is a value,a personal belief,the terms of ones self image.

If I'm mistaken here, then what causes man's action? Certainly not his earthly body... I never said feeling good was the cause, I was speaking in terms of looking at the entire picture... this is how I look at things not necessarily nailing down anything.

What causes man to act? I believe action is cause and effect. Man acts in accord with the demands of his spirit. His spirit seeking peace of mind and contentment as described in Twain.


The goal of an action is very simple, to complete that action. What is it that controls man to act if it's not his spirit?

Either way, we go through life everyday and experience cause and effect, action and reaction and it applies to everything, everywhere. Where there is action, there is re-action and there's action everywhere. There is however but One cause.

Originally Posted by boagie

Justin, this is quite a statement,would you like to expand on what you believe is your essence,a rational explanation.What is this I AM that most people do not grasp?

Not really because it's another topic altogether. I may have worded it wrong. Sometimes the fingers just flow with different thoughts. My point is in the above statement is that some people recognize a spiritual side to things while others don't. Many live life by faith alone, never recognizing the spiritual side of everything. If they don't recognize their very own spirit, then how can they determine this. As we sit here and type, there are others out there watching football games or at the bar or whatever.

I know this for certain... if I had one wish for my life and for my family and friends, it would be that they could find peace of mind and contentment.

"I AM" is referring to what's commonly known as GOD, in most all religions. That is also another topic altogether.

Originally Posted by kennethamy

I don't think that is true. People have a variety of motives for doing what they do. And some of the things people do make them feel bad. For example, when I was much younger, my aunt went to the hospital. I went to visit her, but I simply hated, and still hate going to a hospital. I makes me feel ill to do so. Furthermore, to tell you the truth, I didn't even like my aunt. She was quite mean, and nasty. So, why did I go to visit her. Well, I believed that it was the right thing to do. That it was an obligation. So I did not visit my aunt because it made me feel good. On the contrary, I felt terrible. I did not (in the worst way) want to visit her. But I just believed it was my duty to visit her. I visited her out of a sense of duty. So you must be wrong. I did it although it made me feel bad to do it. Nowadays I sometimes have to go to funerals. They make me feel awful. But sometimes I have to do it, because I am a member of the family. and I really have no choice. I can tell you that I don't attend funerals because it makes me feel good. It makes me feel just awful.

You didn't want to go to the hospital because it made you feel bad and you didn't like your aunt but you thought it was your duty... Correct? Who gave you this duty? Could it possibly be that it wasn't for her sake at all but for the sake of your own spiritual contentment? If you are a person of duty, then it would make your spirit uncomfortable because you weren't performing your duties.

You said you believed it was the right thing to do... Well, who told you that? Where did you get that message? What inside of you made you perform an action that made you feel bad?

Look at it this way. If you hadn't gone and visited her, you would have brought discomfort to yourself. You had a duty and obligation because she was your aunt. This may have made you feel bad... or you think, but you may have felt worse if you hadn't, because you believed it was your duty. Seeing her could have very well been a sacrifice to bring comfort to yourself.

Nowadays I sometimes have to go to funerals. They make me feel awful. But sometimes I have to do it, because I am a member of the family. and I really have no choice. I can tell you that I don't attend funerals because it makes me feel good. It makes me feel just awful.

I'm with you on this. I don't like funerals either. However, if it's a member of my family or a close friend, it would bring me great spiritual discomfort if I didn't go. Not only would my family say something but I would be thinking about it and it would be bothersome to me for a long time. So, I would make a small sacrifice of going to the funeral, so that it wouldn't cause me spiritual discomfort. If we don't go, in the back of our minds we know we should have and this brings discomfort.

Think about it...



Think about it....

[boagie]

Justin,

Originally Posted by boagie
I believe you are mistaken here, feeling good is a product of your actions,feeling good is not cause,it is effect,it might be said to be the goal of the actions of the individual.What motivates is a value,a personal belief,the terms of ones self image."


"If I'm mistaken here, then what causes man's action? Certainly not his earthly body... I never said feeling good was the cause, I was speaking in terms of looking at the entire picture... this is how I look at things not necessarily nailing down anything." I have no idea what that means! obscurity?

It is generally a negative that moves one to action, for generally it is the need of the subject that is to be fulfilled, an organism's ability of mobility might well be as here, modivated by need. I think too we run into a small problem with semantics,you wish to call the psyche the spirit,as long as we both understand these terms as one and the same thing there is no problem.

"What causes man to act? I believe action is an effect. Man acts in accord with the demands of his spirit. His spirit seeking peace of mind and contentment as described in Twain."

This is a bit of a slippery one, I think you stated that feeling good was a cause, well does it often come before the action, no it is a product of the fulfillment of the subject, whatever the modivating term is.

"Most people do things out of the kindness of their heart because it makes themselves feel good. If it made you feel bad, you wouldn't do it.
Again, cause not effect. Sure, it's an entirely different way of looking at it but it makes perfect sense. Couple it with the teachings of Jesus and many enlightened individuals throughout history, it really makes sense."


It kind of sounds like its a cause here Justin, the fact is that modivation in all instances is negative, in that all action is to fulfill a need, if this were not so there would be no need for action, thus no action would come to pass.


Perhaps if agreement cannot be reach presently we need to define our terms, do we all have the same defination of compassion, identifying with, self-sacrifice, psyche and spirt or other terms?

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Desire is the cause of action.

Desire cannot be anything but self-involved.

All action is selfish.

How is the desire to help someone in need, selfish? If it were selfish, it would be depriving someone of something that person was entitled to. How would, for instance, my desire to go to bed because I am tired, be selfish? Or to have a sandwich for lunch because I am hungry? To be selfish, you have to take something from someone, and treat that person adversely. If, for instance a mother leaves two pieces of cake for her sons, one for each, and one of the son's eats both his and his brother's, that's being selfish. But why would it be selfish for the boy just to eat his own piece of cake, and leave his brother's piece for his brother. Are you saying that if one son ate only his own piece of cake, and left the other one as he was supposed to, the mother would be right to call him selfish because he ate his own piece of cake? I don't think that's the way the word, "selfish" is used in English. Do you?

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

How is the desire to help someone in need, selfish? If it were selfish, it would be depriving someone of something that person was entitled to. How would, for instance, my desire to go to bed because I am tired, be selfish? Or to have a sandwich for lunch because I am hungry? To be selfish, you have to take something from someone, and treat that person adversely. If, for instance a mother leaves two pieces of cake for her sons, one for each, and one of the son's eats both his and his brother's, that's being selfish. But why would it be selfish for the boy just to eat his own piece of cake, and leave his brother's piece for his brother. Are you saying that if one son ate only his own piece of cake, and left the other one as he was supposed to, the mother would be right to call him selfish because he ate his own piece of cake? I don't think that's the way the word, "selfish" is used in English. Do you?

Kennethamy,

You are still stuck with the sematic problem, to fulfill a personal need is self-serveing-thus selfish. To take advantage of another to fulfill your needs is selfish. If the action did not involve another being, but serves the needs of the subject it again is self-serveing, thus selfish, not selfish in the way of taking advantage of someonelse but selfish none the less,it is done for ones self.You need to get a handle on the different connotations here. Maybe this will help, all action is to fulfill a need, no need, no action, the action then necessarily fulfills first the need of the subject, the subject is then self-fulfilled-----feels good!

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

Kennethamy,

You are still stuck with the sematic problem, to fulfill a personal need is self-serveing-thus selfish. To take advantage of another to fulfill your needs is selfish. If the action did not involve another being, but serves the needs of the subject it again is self-serveing, thus selfish, not selfish in the way of taking advantage of someonelse but selfish none the less,it is done for ones self.

I know you think that is true. The question is, why you think that is true. And, of course, whether you are correct to think it is true. Just repeating your view does not make your view true. I serve my need (I suppose) when I go to sleep when I am tired. To say that is selfish is preposterous. Therefore, it follows, that is is not true that whenever I serve my need, I am being selfish. You really have to distinguish between being self-interested and being selfish. Philosophy is largely about making important distinctions.