How do you define nature

[TickTockMan]

Originally Posted by boagie

Nature may change entirely, but whatever constitution nature becomes, it will still be, nature, for what is nature but a very large complex condition.

. . . which, of course, is much broader than the immediate environment in which we live. We could pave the Earth with asphalt, coat it in concrete, wrap it in steel . . . and nature, as a process, would persist. Our own galaxy, and galaxies beyond ours, would continue to do their thing regardless of our puny activities here on Earth.

Yet, we are not apart from nature. We are nature, but even in our absence, nature would just keep on ticking along. In an infinitely large universe with no beginning and no end, how big do we think we are?

This doesn't need to be a discouraging thought. On the contrary, I find it liberating.

[Rose]

Nature for me is everything natural - good and bad. Was it Alan Watts who compared the world to an apple tree? He said the apple tree ‘apples’ and the world ‘peoples’.

I don’t know about that. I just know that I enjoy my walk in the woods better if I don’t think about giving everything a label.

[boagie]

TickTockMan,

Yes I do not think that that thought is something to aviod, it is a pathway to the sublime, for the sublime, unlike beauty most of the time, shatters our concepts and shakes our self importance to the ground, sublime, how could one survive it, yet here we are, looking out from that pale blue dot. Just remembering Carl Sagn a bit here, with the pale blue dot.

[boagie]

Hi Rose,

When I walk in the woods, for the most part it is not difficult to not label, most of the creatures I incounter, crawly things ect, I know nothing about, even if there was a label, a label does not tell you much. Again, a rose by any other name. Next time out, try to appreciate all the different consciousness interacting, all struggling in their individual ways to survive, all playing off one another, is both beautiful and terriable at the same time.

[Rose]

Thank you. I understand. We have a lovely big wooded area here with a lake in the middle. But I doubt very much if it has the kind of wild life you enjoy in Canada.

[boagie]

Hi Rose,

Nature is nature I suppose, at anyrate most of my time is spent in the city, it is a treat for me to get out into the country. Your situtation sounds ideal, woods and a lake in the middle, I am jealous!! Just a thought, have you ever noticed that a large body of water has a calming effect upon you? It just dawned upon me, I am talking to someone who lives on an island-----------lol!!!

[Rose]

It is nice but unfortunately I can’t walk around there alone, it’s not as safe and relaxing as it sounds. I often go with my daughter when she is walking her dog. And you’re right about the calming affect of water. When younger I used to go and sit by the canal lock with a book on nice days.

[Khethil]

... and that's one of the reasons my wife and I sold our house, quit our jobs and moved 1500 miles away into the sticks. I can look out my back door and see nothing that man's corrupted.

We take walks way out into the country; down trails to the river's edge (Missouri River) amass twisted vines, deer running about, ad-hoc creeks here and there... where trees die, fall and there lay still. There are places one can sit on a hill and just watch the wind blow; no horns, no thumpa-thumpa cars, no gun shots, no jets or planes, no jesus freaks knocking at the door and no barrage of horn-honks in the morning.

Yea, we've sacrificed a lot to get here (wanna see my budget?!) but I'll trade that piece-of-crap, 6-figure income job any day for what I have now - and I'd recommend it to everyone.

[TickTockMan]

I don't think that any discussion of nature and man's place in it can be complete without including the lyrics from The Eagles song, "The Last Resort"

-------------
She came from Providence,
the one in Rhode Island
Where the old world shadows hang
heavy in the air
She packed her hopes and dreams
like a refugee
Just as her father came across the sea

She heard about a place people were smilin'
They spoke about the red man's way,
and how they loved the land
And they came from everywhere
to the Great Divide
Seeking a place to stand
or a place to hide

Down in the crowded bars,
out for a good time,
Can't wait to tell you all,
what it's like up there
And they called it paradise
I don't know why
Somebody laid the mountains low
while the town got high

Then the chilly winds blew down
Across the desert
through the canyons of the coast, to
the Malibu
Where the pretty people play,
hungry for power
to light their neon way
and give them things to do

Some rich men came and raped the land,
Nobody caught 'em
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes, and Jesus,
people bought 'em
And they called it paradise
The place to be
They watched the hazy sun, sinking in the sea

You can leave it all behind
and sail to Lahaina
just like the missionaries did, so many years ago
They even brought a neon sign: "Jesus is coming"
Brought the white man's burden down
Brought the white man's reign

Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here

We satisfy our endless needs and
justify our bloody deeds,
in the name of destiny and the name
of God

And you can see them there,
On Sunday morning
They stand up and sing about
what it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise,
kiss it goodbye
--------

It's the last two lines that always ring the most true for me.

[BrightNoon]

Nature = The World = All (isn't English wonderful with its many synonyms?)

To claim that civilization is not natural because it has been made by man is like saying that glucose is not natural because it is made by bacteria, or that water in not natural because it is formed by a reaction between Oxygen and Hydrogen, etc.