Teaching Learning.

[de_budding]

My girlfriend and I are having minor dispute about the educational system in Britain. Basically, she insists that it is 'about right'. The structure, the subjects and the right of passage/journey it represents.

I argue that as a prerequisite to embarking on this journey it is imperative that we are taught to learn via being taught to make decisions, to be existential and to be responsible.

My motives are that I see too many kids who don't want to be at school who are- perhaps quite rightly, claiming that they see "no point". Or I think another classic childhood phrase would be "it's not fair!!!!". Which I agree it isn't fair to force kids into an education they don't see the point or application of. I know my brother certainly thinks he was led into wasting 2 years at college at age 16, which in my opinion means he wasn't able to make his decisions at age 16, shocking if you ask me.

So my girlfriends main argument is that you can't teach young children how to make decisions (at least not in the way I’m suggesting*). So my questions (finally) are...

How can we teach children and people to learn?
How can we teach children and people to make decisions?

*The way I’m suggesting is probably an existentialist-style reaction to situations, where a moral and practical framework is quickly constructed when confronted with a decision in order to make the most out of the decision.

Hope I'm making sense, and thanks for any help.
Dan,

[dudette]

Interesting subject, I am currently in college and I am about to head into university.
As I recall their where an awful lot of people who didnt want to be in school when i was there and it makes it hard for teachers to teach and students to learn. However you cannot simply leave children to do their own thing. If given the right to make their own decisions they would simply choose to play on a computer all day long or hang about on street corners.
I think its important to remember there is a lack of jobs out their and alot less oppertunity for employment, so by not taking the education route (such as further education like college as your brother did) you leave yourself at the back of the queue for employment when leaving education.
Sounds like your takin abit of a Marxist view that the capitalists are shaping our decisions and teaching only what they want us to know.
Hope you find my views relevant to your arguement.

[Didymos Thomas]

No educational system is going to be perfect for every student. However, I do not think the universal complaint of students, 'this class is pointless, I'll never need to know how to do this, ect', is a serious objection to an educational system. Learning certainly will not cause anyone any harm.

But I do think that we can teach decision making. To do so, we teach students history, literature, and what have you. That's what an education is all about - learning how to live in this world. You cannot expect a 16 year old kid to make wise decisions. They might, from time to time, but we certainly should not expect such a thing, nor should we expect a wise decision from a 16 year old to be much more than luck.

When people say they wasted some number of years in college, I am always astounded. Perhaps some of them simply mean that their time in college has not helped them, to their knowledge, turn an extra dollar (or pound, or whatever). But college should not have anything to do with making money. All of our educational efforts should be for the sake of learning, of knowledge. If your brother really wasted two years at college, either he didn't pay any attention or he should have picked some better classes (perhaps a philosophy course instead of accounting or business).
Teaching people to learn is difficult if they do not want to learn. If they want to learn, all you have to do is hand them a book.

As for teaching decision making, this is threefold: 1. read your eyes bloody with good books 2. keep reading 3. go into the world. By 'go into the world' I mean leave home and comfort and set out into reality, on your own. Travel, but do not be a tourist. Spend some time living, instead of just thinking about living.

There is no systematic cure all. At some point we have to realize that most people do not want to learn anything they do not have to learn. So, we take those who do want to learn, and try to set them on the right path of study. We encourage them to see the world. As for the rest, we explain the virtues of learning. Either they will come around, or they wont.

As I recall their where an awful lot of people who didnt want to be in school when i was there and it makes it hard for teachers to teach and students to learn. However you cannot simply leave children to do their own thing. If given the right to make their own decisions they would simply choose to play on a computer all day long or hang about on street corners.

This is very true, young people tend to dislike school. Always have. And so I agree that we cannot just let kids make the decision to stay away from school as a general rule.

I think we need schools to address the various needs of students. Some will pursue a liberal arts education, some just want to learn some skill and get to work. Both paths need to be available, though I'd probably prefer some mentor system for the teaching of work skills.

Sounds like your takin abit of a Marxist view that the capitalists are shaping our decisions and teaching only what they want us to know.

Isn't this generally true, though? Society always shapes the education of it's youth, and our society is a corporate society, built on rampant, unrestrained consumerism.

[de_budding]

dudette,

Hope you find my views relevant to your argument.

Nothing but , and you hit the nail on the head with

the capitalists are shaping our decisions and teaching

, I guess it just pains me to see so many people un-free on a fundamental level. Hence why it is so important to me that children are given the right to make their own decisions, but as yourself, Didymos and my girlfriend insist, they would simply choose to play on a computer. This is what I would want to seek to change, it seems to undermine the point of education when the child doesn't fundementally understand it. I guess it is the job of a child psychologist to wokr out wether this is a mental impossibility or not.

Didymos,

I do not think the universal complaint of students, 'this class is pointless, I'll never need to know how to do this, ect', is a serious objection to an educational system. Learning certainly will not cause anyone any harm.

Point taken and agreed upon. But in regards to

I do think that we can teach decision making

and

That's what an education is all about - learning how to live in this world

I find this slightly contradictory. Decision making is delicate and takes great care, consideration and awareness (especially in earlier life), and this is not the attitude displayed by sometimes minor and sometimes major complaints*. Also I would like to add that 'learning how to live in this world' (in Britain at least) does not teach freedom and decision but conformism, Christianity (in the uniform morals presented in primary schools) and how to make the money. But that just takes me back to the second duddete quote, which is accurate enough to shut me up.

There is no systematic cure all. At some point we have to realize that most people do not want to learn anything they do not have to learn. So, we take those who do want to learn, and try to set them on the right path of study. We encourage them to see the world. As for the rest, we explain the virtues of learning. Either they will come around, or they wont.

In the words of James Hetfield "Sad but true." Again I guess this is where my gripe lies.

Thanks guys for the feedback it was most helpful. Even though I feel it essentially proved me wrong :P

*On Discovery recently there was a documentary called 'The Big Experiment', and it was an inner-city London school, the complaints there were not just minor... heh heh, you'd have to watch the earlier episodes to believe the complete disregard for any information displayed.

[de Silentio]

How can we teach children and people to learn?

With patients, lots and lots of patients.

How can we teach children and people to make decisions?

We cannot teach them how make rational decisions, they can only learn how to make rational decisions.

[Arjen]

I would like to make a very short statement. If indeed a person can be taught how to learn and mak decisions, the same problem exists. Some people will want to learn, others will say it isn't fair for the same reasons as in the first case. The unfairness being having to do things one is not naturally inclined to do. Your reasoning is the start of a regressus ad infinitum and therefore false.

Try looking at it this way:
Everybody wants/likes/does different things. That is the strength of humanity (diversity). Why not let everybody do as they please? Perhaps a balance can be restored without the constant harrassment of or own?

[de_budding]

"Try looking at it this way:
Everybody wants/likes/does different things. That is the strength of humanity (diversity). Why not let everybody do as they please? Perhaps a balance can be restored without the constant harrassment of or own?"

Hmmm, well why do we already harass our own? If by harass you mean, force or badger ‘responsibility’ into individuals via the educational institutions, then the answer would be to do with the collective knowledge of mankind (the work so far) which predates all of us. It is a game of catch up as far as I’m concerned. Within the collective knowledge there will be the information needed to make responsible decisions and, paradoxically, the information needed to access the collective knowledge- so, an individual who is born and not taught to access knowledge is going to have a hell of a tough time (can you teach yourself to read?). Luckily for us, once we enter the world it isn’t long before we are accepted/forced into local schools and taught/harassed by what is considered the fundamentals of the collective knowledge.

So as already stated;

Doing as one pleases leads nowhere but backwards (willing); doing as others please is frustrating, demeaning and a chore (unwilling).

It is the unwilling latter I seek to repair by making it willful; this would also combat the harassment and furthermore I think it can be done in one fell swoop by introducing- as a prerequisite to the ‘considered fundamentals of collective knowledge’, ‘the information needed to make responsible decisions’. If it is ok to teach/force humans to access the collective knowledge in the way we do, then it will do no harm to teach/force them to want to in the first place.

Bit it would be a futile effort if 'We cannot teach them how make rational decisions, they can only learn how to make rational decisions'

So first we must teach them to learn, so they can learn to make rational decisions, so they can choose to learn. So we have to teach them to learn so that they can choose it? So the factor rendering my endevour useless is hindsight?

How about this? If we teach hindsight through warnings and told-you-so's it will diffuse into advice, but if we demonstart hindsight with philosophy a-priori it will evolve into forsight... ?

Dan.

[Rivelli]

I was thinking about a couple simple ideas. Why not teach Logic, a light form of Decision Theory, Metacognition, and of course the Socratic Method. This stuff doesn't come up till late High School or College and should be the other way around. I believe that kids can easily learn at least the basics of those.


You teach those early in school and not late, the kids will be making better decisions.

[Arjen]

De budding, I dare say that the educational system forces people into a non-responsible posture towards their own actions. That we are being taught what others have thought up proves it. f I were to teach someone how I am responsible, it would be of no importance to the student because the way I am responsible has to do with all sorts of other character flaws of mine (apart from intending my opinion to serve as a rulebuse a mean). My responsibility would therefore be destructive for most others. It is the fact that things are being taught which is so destructive in this matter; not the content of the teachings.

Do you see that point?

[Rivelli]

I see the point perfectly and am a prime example of that. I had the worst grades in school and simply disregarded any work that was attempted to be force fed to me. It wasn't until after High School that I was able to learn the things that I wanted to learn. The perception of myself changed overnight. I now learn higher academic subjects for the sake of learning and how I want to learn it. The public school system took away my motivation and it wasn't until they were gone that I got it back.

I don't think it's right to force feed anybody what someone else deems fit. Now the areas I mentioned above I feel would be the some of the best areas to learn how to learn, become a critical thinker ect but I wouldn't force feed it to the masses.

I'm a strong Libertarian and believe in maximum individual liberty. To force any individual to do anything they do not wish to do is inherently wrong in my book.