What is life?

[boagie]

Nameless,

Fantastic, excellent, I certainly would be interested in more. Thank you for taking the time.

[nameless]

Originally Posted by boagie

Nameless,

Fantastic, excellent, I certainly would be interested in more. Thank you for taking the time.

My pleasure.. Buckle up, though, it's a wild ride through the rabbit hole and you're sure to get stretch-marks on your brain!! *__-

[Fido]

Originally Posted by nameless

Both being illusion, a 'perspective of memory'. Life, time, motion.. all illusion of memory/perspective.

If in life it were possible to float like mote, and be able to move nothing, to feel nothing without being felt, to care for nothing without being cared about, and etc. then I might agree that all were illusion. We have no hard surface against which to lever anything. And life which we take in our luxury to be the most certain of things is no thing at all. To make the mote of life mean something, we have to lend even the small weight of our illusions to the building of a better reality. It is not much, but all we've got.

Actually, there are quite varied perceptions of 'time'. Sometimes it seems to move quite slowly, etc.. No, it isnt the same perception for everyone.

I agree. Time moves differently for everyone perceiving time. How can it then be the same thing for each? My answer is that daylight comes in the morning even for the rich man who can stay in bed. We cannot give time being, but meaning; and only use this thing without being that robs us inevitably of our lives- to a meaningful purpose, of giving us all meaning. Think of time for its significance. Birth starts our clocks and death ends them. Within those bookends are our words going to be true or false, bright, or dark, hopeful or disparaging; and etc?

There are many perceptions and definitions of 'Reality'. The one that I like is from the Vedanta and says that;
"Reality mist rigidly adhere to that which is in an unchanging state of universal permanence." That certainly leaves out the 'illusions'...

I certainly appreciate the desire for permanence, and rigidity. In a relativistic age we should know how difficult that is. But at the two ends of reality is where most of the illusion is. When we look at existence, which is an infinite, we have a tendency to fill out all the many unknowns there with air of our own particular scent. And truth, as the fashion in which we represent reality, is equally suseptible to subjective influence. But, most people will agree, that when untampered with by judgements without basis, that reality is what it is.

That would certainly be true if life were defined as 'motion'.
But it is still illusion.

It is life which defines all things, life which gives all meaning and value. It is possible that life is illusion, or motion -understanding that life defines each of these qulaities, and not the other way around.

I don't understand your meaning.
All is 'memory', there is nothing 'out there'!

You are out there. Is it all illusion and memory, or a little of each and no sense in between? If life were all an experience of mind without reality, why would anyone suffer unpleasantries, miseries, pain, or death. Could we not will them all aways like so many spooks?
[quote]

To what are you refering? I'm not talking about taking anything from anyone.
[quote]
I would not accuse you of demeaning any one. Thinking of life as an illusion, which it clearly is for having no permanence is rather neutralizing. I see my life as an illusion too, but rather more like Leisure de manes. I do not want to waste my time of illusion feeding my illusion. Rather, I want to feed existence instead of feeding off of existence. Humanity does not live. Humanity exists while the illusive lives within come and go. I want to help make certain that the illusion of life continues.

I understand the perspective, but, as I see it, all is still illusion, as is 'life'.
One can definitely enjoy the dream as it is, but being 'lucid' in the dream is the arising of (otherwise non-accessable) 'options'. When you become lucid in a 'night dream' you can fly away from danger, or transform it... Non-lucidity will keep you trapped within the 'rules' of the dream-world. The same holds true with becomming lucid in the dream to which you 'awaken' in the morning.

I do not deny that life has that quality, but so long as life defines all things, and gives all meaning, it is life, what ever life we are born with for the most part, which will make the rule of the dream, and define it as illusion or as nightmare.

[boagie]

Hi Everybody,

I find it hard to accept that as far as physical reality is concern that there is really nothing out there. The nature of reality is relational, and indeed any of what might be termed the projected reality has to relate to our own biology. This is not necessarily just as reality is, but what it is in relation to our biological experience and interpretation. So in this sense, it would be biocentric. Just as a maze is built to confound, so the biological interpretation is built to unconfound. Things are as they are relative to our judgement of the relations between subject and object. An illusion never the less you might say, but there is no reason to suppose that there is nothing out there to work with in the first place. Just as we adapt to the physcial world, dependent upon experience, propagation and death, in a relational adaptation of not the indivdual but of species.The individual you might say is the vehicle of species and species is the relational process at its best. Change as a coevolutionary change seems to mean that, that which is relational is mobile in some important sense, change appears somewhat constant as does the process of becomeing increaseingly relational. The interrelational nature of subject and object in its simpliest example, is a binary condition, the complexity of this binary situtation, is the whole at large. Meaning is simply a biological read out of the here and now, as statements about relations.

[Fido]

Hey back atcha.

If I say life is an illusion it is not because I see all of reality as illusion but life itself which is always changing perspectives until it ends, and has nothing solid upon which to base knowledge. Perhaps, more correctly, life is like a mirage that springs up quicker behind us the faster we run toward it. We cannot excuse bad behavior with ignorence. We have to trust that when illusion like people tell us we are stepping on their toes that we are not standing on their tails.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by Fido

Hey back atcha.

If I say life is an illusion it is not because I see all of reality as illusion but life itself which is always changing perspectives until it ends, and has nothing solid upon which to base knowledge. Perhaps, more correctly, life is like a mirage that springs up quicker behind us the faster we run toward it. We cannot excuse bad behavior with ignorence. We have to trust that when illusion like people tell us we are stepping on their toes that we are not standing on their tails.

Fido,

If we can understand life and reality as process, there must be some understandable foundation for such a process. I think there is understanding, but it is relational understanding, though both sides of this relational state are in constant change, knowledge is an understanding of those relations in the here and now, and its is understood biologically, in this, reaction is change, change is reaction and a product of consciousness. To try to understand being however I think it futile if we try to understand it as if we are apart, in other words subject and object perhaps a new term for the process as a whole would be more fruitful, at present we are sitting on a whale fishing for a minnow. Our belief in our own individuality is the real illusion. Neurology in the not to distant future will utterly destroy our idea of individuality. You correct though for process itself has no walls upon which to rest a ladder, but you can understand that much.

[Fido]

Nobody understands life. Everybody thinks they know something of their own life. It's like wrestling a snake in a vasaline lake.

Hey, that reminds me of a joke: This salesman was going door to door in the South giving out coupons and free samples of vasaline. And he would always ask the people if they knew what vasaline was good for. One couple said Yes! Cuts, bruises, and making love. The saleman was surprised at the answer and asked: How do you use it for making love? Well, the man answered; If you put it on the door nob the kids can't get into the room!

And, I would say that it is not that we are not distinct as individuals or that we do not experience our own lives; but that we are a part of a larger organism that holds all knowledge in the form of concepts and culture, and gives life to all. We are not created individually, but born of society, and all we know of eternity is in the life of society.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by Fido

Nobody understands life. Everybody thinks they know something of their own life. It's like wrestling a snake in a vasaline lake.

Hey, that reminds me of a joke: This salesman was going door to door in the South giving out coupons and free samples of vasaline. And he would always ask the people if they knew what vasaline was good for. One couple said Yes! Cuts, bruises, and making love. The saleman was surprised at the answer and asked: How do you use it for making love? Well, the man answered; If you put it on the door nob the kids can't get into the room!

And, I would say that it is not that we are not distinct as individuals or that we do not experience our own lives; but that we are a part of a larger organism that holds all knowledge in the form of concepts and culture, and gives life to all. We are not created individually, but born of society, and all we know of eternity is in the life of society.

Fido,

I am unsure of your attitude, it does almost sound like you believe we should not try to understand as it is futile. If that were the case, it would be a futile sentiment itself, for wonder is the nature of the beast. In referance to individuality, the sense of self, already with the fact that we are a community of multicellular organisms, the wonder arises of what is it of greater significance that has orchsatrated this construction. I am sure you are aware of the book, "The Selfish Gene,"which I think indicates a more elemental identity as the core of our existence. The fact that we come into this world without an identity and only aquire said identity from the context of our birth, only our contitution really a defineing quality, as it meets with context. The reality of the nature of this process I think will be most disturbing to most of us, and devastating to the religious whom will no doubt cling to denial. At anyrate perhaps my impression of your attitude is unwarrented as I doubt if without a very active curiousity you would be here at this site. No offense intended, I have been wrong once or twice before.

[nameless]

Originally Posted by Fido

If in life it were possible to float like mote, and be able to move nothing, to feel nothing without being felt, to care for nothing without being cared about, and etc. then I might agree that all were illusion.

But it is more than possible!
(Yet, I am not seeking agreement, merely communication.)

We have no hard surface against which to lever anything.

Excrutiatingly true! There is nothing 'solid' upon which to found this illusion of (solid) existence. All 'security' appears to be false, in the end; a temporary salve for the delicate ego; a warm blanket that we might more sweetly dream.

And life which we take in our luxury to be the most certain of things is no thing at all. To make the mote of life mean something, we have to lend even the small weight of our illusions to the building of a better reality. It is not much, but all we've got.

How is it that you feel free to speak in terms of 'we'? For 'whom' do you speak?
So, is what you are saying that in order to make that which "is no thing at all" to appear as "something", we must apply a good dose of "our illusions" in order to forge the "building of a better reality"? Have I got it? Yet you implied that you did not ascribe to the theory that all is illusion? What have I missed? *__-

I agree. Time moves differently for everyone perceiving time. How can it then be the same thing for each?

Simple, it is not "the same thing for each". We all seem to be unique perspectives of each unique moment...
(Your implication in the wording of your question presupposes that 'time' is "the same thing for each", begging the question (I think) is the fallacy.)

My answer is that daylight comes in the morning even for the rich man who can stay in bed. We cannot give time being, but meaning; and only use this thing without being that robs us inevitably of our lives- to a meaningful purpose, of giving us all meaning. Think of time for its significance.

We have no choice in what we think or believe or think that we understand or feel or (appear to) do. There are many who 'believe' the illusion to be 'Reality' (hence the 'personal' definitions of 'Reality') thus having the need to 'defend' and 'propagate' the 'belief', adding much depth and richness and balance to the great tapestry of existence.
Those who feel that they need 'meaning' in their lives, usually find (and nurture) it.
The 'significance' of 'time' seems to be that (the illusion of our) existence cannot exist without the illusion of 'time'. After all, there has to be 'time' to exist!

Birth starts our clocks and death ends them.

If you look at life from a linear perspective.

Within those bookends are our words going to be true or false, bright, or dark, hopeful or disparaging; and etc?

Stay tuned! Within the question the answer is mutually arisen. Just pay attention.
From another perspective, how can our words be 'true' or 'false' if we have no 'choice' nor 'free-will'? By what standard do we discriminate if we have nothing 'solid for leverage'? Ego? Pride? Vanity?
We can 'do' no more than be true to our 'nature', there is no alternative.

I certainly appreciate the desire for permanence, and rigidity.

People with emotional and mental needs for the feelings of 'rigidity and permanence' usually seem to find them. Again, there is no 'solidity', no 'security' in an illusory life, merely the illusion thereof.

In a relativistic age we should know how difficult that is.

It has not been difficult for man, age upon age, to support illusion with more illusion, often called 'truth and reality' to give added (egoic and the attached emotional weight.

But at the two ends of reality is where most of the illusion is. When we look at existence
(reality?)
, which is an infinite
(this is, perhaps, your 'belief' that you are stating as some 'fact'? There is no evidence of anything infinite..),
we have a tendency to fill out all the many unknowns there with air of our own particular scent. And truth, as the fashion in which we represent reality,
(if, by 'reality' you mean 'existence', we do not, from this perspective, 'represent' anything, we ARE existence!)
is equally suseptible to subjective influence. But, most people will agree,
(Fallacy of appealing to numbers. Many people agreeing does not mean that they are correct, merely in agreement.)
that when untampered with by judgements without basis
(everyone who 'judges' feels that they have a 'basis' from which to judge, that is what vanity is about, prideful ego),
that reality is what it is.
If you mean that 'existence' is as it is, I'd agree. Every moment of existence is a done deal, ever, timelessly.

It is life which defines all things, life which gives all meaning and value. It is possible that life is illusion, or motion -understanding that life defines each of these qulaities, and not the other way around.

Yes, it is the illusion that we are 'doing/being', that we are 'distinct' from 'other'.. Illusions finding definition in illusion, dreams dreaming wakefulness, twitching in our sleep like dreaming puppies...

You are out there.

It certainly appears that way, like the 'brightness' appears to be 'in the sun' and sky and reflections..

Is it all illusion and memory,

The Memory in the Moment is (the dream/illusion/thought/perspective.. of) existence.

If life were all an experience of mind without reality (why cannot 'Mind' be 'Reality'?), why would anyone suffer unpleasantries, miseries, pain, or death. Could we not will them all aways like so many spooks?

Buddhism speaks of 'suffering', I will speak of 'balance'. By nature and definition, there is a great harmony, a balance of things. You cannot feel a particular intensity of pain without there being an equal 'intensity' of 'joy'. They are One and cannot be divided. For there to exist 'good' there must be 'evil' in the complete definition. Much 'suffering' comes from the mad seeking of the one and the horror filled avoidance of the other. Like a hamster on his wheel, running and running, faster, faster, and never distancing himself from that which is 'behind', not gaining of that which is (imagined to be) 'before' him. Frustration. Yet, within that frustration lies the great egoic wank of 'judging the moment' and finding it 'wanting'! Such a boost to the pride, such frustration.. Balance?

Thinking of life as an illusion, which it clearly is for having no permanence is rather neutralizing.

I don't know what you mean by 'neutralizing'.

I see my life as an illusion too, but rather more like Leisure de manes. I do not want to waste my time of illusion feeding my illusion. Rather, I want to feed existence instead of feeding off of existence. Humanity does not live. Humanity exists while the illusive lives within come and go. I want to help make certain that the illusion of life continues.

We all must be our nature, each moment, no choice...
Each of equal 'meaning', equal 'value'.

I do not deny that life has that quality, but so long as life defines all things, and gives all meaning, it is life, what ever life we are born with for the most part, which will make the rule of the dream, and define it as illusion or as nightmare.

True enough! The dream seems so real, and we are bound by the 'rules' of that 'reality'. Yet, oddly, once in awhile, someone awakens into the dream to realize it's nature. They are then 'lucid' and realize that rules can be bent and broken, as they are merely the 'perception' and 'acceptance' of those 'rules'. For instance, in your night dream, instead of running from the dragon, being lucid that you are in a dream, you can now grow swift wings to ride the delight of your escape.
Or turn the dragon into a flower... (which isn't as much fun)

[nameless]

Originally Posted by boagie

Hi Everybody,

I find it hard to accept that as far as physical reality is concern that there is really nothing out there.

There is no evidence ever presented of an 'out there' that cannot be subsumed in/as 'memory'!
Just the impressions of memory, beliefs, memes, all memory. Just think, if you were the 'Creator' (whether Consciousness/'god'/nature/whatever..) wouldn't it be a super coup to just have a 'Thought' for a 'Moment', and have that 'timeless thought' be perceived to be all of our existence in all of it's marvelous multitude of manifestations of memory?! Your 'self' and 'universe' (and biology) is all momentary memory.

The nature of reality is relational,

It appears that you use 'existence' and 'reality' interchangeably. Is this so?
If you are saying that Existence = Context/Definition, I have found this to be so.

and indeed any of what might be termed the projected reality has to relate to our own biology.

Our own biology (self) is also a 'mnemonic concept'...