Sudetenland 2.0

[Didymos Thomas]

Do you recall reading of the Nazi invasion in history class?

Fighting with Russia spreads to cities across Georgia - CNN.com

Rise and Fall covers the invasion rather well; I'd sight the pages if I could find my copy.

[Zetetic11235]

There was one point that I take exception to that surfaced for a short period, and that is of the 'hypocrasy' of the United states in supporting Georgia.

A russian reporter asked how it is that the U.S. could criticize them for invading Georgia to 'create a defense bubble for their people in danger' when they had invaded Iraq for the same reason, and this was taken seriously by a number of 'journalists'!

Russia has been encouraging the citizens of Georgia living in South Osetia for months to become russian citizens and has been handing out passports to these anti georgian elements to make thir citizenship legitimate. Once a sufficent number of people in S. Osetia were Russian citizens, they began provoking georgia with small arms fire, which Georgia did not initially respond to. Upon the non response, these 'rebels' took further liberties until Georgia could no longer ignore it(kinda like if back in school that huge kid you knew you couldn't beat in a fight started messing with you more and more until you couldn't take it). The second Georgia made an attempt to fight back, Russia jumped on them for 'endangering the welfare of russian citizens'. Remind you of anything? Hitler declared the german nationals in the sudetenland german citizens and then declared it necessary for the wellfare of german citizens that they be liberated from the control of non german entities to justify his invasion.

Putin has been silencing the journalist Another Dead Journalist - WSJ.com

[FatalMuse]

Originally Posted by Zetetic11235

There was one point that I take exception to that surfaced for a short period, and that is of the 'hypocrasy' of the United states in supporting Georgia.

A russian reporter asked how it is that the U.S. could criticize them for invading Georgia to 'create a defense bubble for their people in danger' when they had invaded Iraq for the same reason, and this was taken seriously by a number of 'journalists'!

But the heart of the Georgia issue is the same as Iraq: oil

Russia wants control of Georgia for strategic and materialist reasons more so than security or removing a threat, much the same as the US occupation of Iraq.

I'm not agreeing at all with Russia's actions here, it's just that I honestly do think the USA is being hypocritical in their condemnation of Russia. Last night while watching the news I heard Condi Rice saying that USA disapproves of the 'invasion of a country, occupation of a capital and overthrow of a government.' Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

[Didymos Thomas]

Oh, the Administration's response to the Russian invasion is entirely hypocritical.

But the circumstances are quite different. Sure, economics is at the heart of Russian motivation - economics is at the heart of almost all military conflicts. What worries me most of all is that Russia is trying to recapture territory once held by the empire. Is this step one? Will some other former Soviet Republic be next? Who knows.

[FatalMuse]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

But the circumstances are quite different. Sure, economics is at the heart of Russian motivation - economics is at the heart of almost all military conflicts. What worries me most of all is that Russia is trying to recapture territory once held by the empire. Is this step one? Will some other former Soviet Republic be next? Who knows.

I completely agree that the circumstances are different, but the intentions and legitimacy of each situation has obvious parallels.

One thing to ponder: it wasn't that long ago that Iraq was part of the British Empire. USA is not Britain but they are allied and current Iraq still looks very much like the West trying to (re-)establish an empire in the Middle East.

I seem to be stirring up agruments all over the show lately by labelling the US condemnation of Russia as hypocritical. I'm not taking any sides, it just seems the rhetoric between Russia and the USA suggests that the cold war never really ended - it just shifted focus temporarily and is coming back into vision.

[Holiday20310401]

Its too bad we couldn't set up a podium and date in which we told the world (so that the Nazis would hear) that any former Nazis who were involved in killing Jews to explain why they did it at the time.

Unfortunately I think most would be dead or in exile in a rural area where communication would be limited. And the ones who got caught tended to have heart attacks or suicide before they could be captured or punished.

But hearing the reasons for such insanity would be nice from the ones who did it. And it would be interesting in itself to see if they'd actually want to speak.

[Zetetic11235]

Is it hypocritical? Is Saakashvili someone who has long been in hot water with the Russians and working under treaty stipulations which he has broken? Is he guilty of oppressing his own people? Has he dug mass graves for those whom he authorized the testing of biological agents on? Saakashvili is a democratically elected president, and has long been pushing to join NATO, much to Russia's disdain. We have come to a clash of ideology in this just as we have before, in form it is true that Russia has a vested interest in Georgia and is ideologically opposed to what the Georgians are doing, but we hold the converse view on the matter and our actions though in form were similar, are not in any sense hypocritical. We are still acting in accordance to our basic ideals in them. The iraqi's do now have a fairly stable democracy, and a better way of life by our ideological standard.

Where is the conclusive proof of this invasion being for the oil? All I have seen is rather slanted attacks and intentions which make little to no sense. We didn't need the iraqi oil fields, we could break the oil cartell in the middle east with our own resources. If we wanted, we could flood the market with oil simultaneously crushing Venezuela, Russia and Iran by crippling their economies while simultaneously breaking OPEC completely. The only problem is that big oil would have to shift to alternatives(a la T. boone Pickens, who is backed Pelosi who has purchased a substantial ammount of stock in his company following his unveiling of his plan for wind energy) to keep their money and it isn't really cost effective, but at the same time, were prices to drop moderately, ther would be substantial increase in consumption, possibly making up for the drop especially if all of the oil was domestic. It is probably possible to flood the markets within the next 5-10 years and totally undermine these problem countries while gaining energy independence without hurting big oil much.

Edit: Yes the handling is goofy and hypocritical in a sense, and there have been a number of times when those speaking out including condi and mccain have said things akin to 'invasion doesn't happen anymore its the 21st century'. This is silly,they should be taking a deeper ideological stance on this.

[VideCorSpoon]

I wonder why whenever there are recent conflicts, its usually assumed its about oil.

Something to remember is that Russia (in both democratic and socialist forms) has been doing this for decades. Whenever a new premier or president takes power, there is a brief foray into a disputed territory or what not. The USSR in 1968, Putin did it with Chechnya when he took power, and low and behold Medvedev does this with Georgia right after he takes power.

But it is interesting that the original post references to German Blitzkrieg. I do not see it in the same way with the Russians and Georgia... partly becuase they are mainly using lightly armored APC's. But militarily, a fleet of Postal trucks could to the same thing... and more efficiently I might add.

But it is odd how this is happening in the grips of a very fervent bout of Russian nationalism. Any similarities to Nazi germany??? Probably.

[Didymos Thomas]

But it is odd how this is happening in the grips of a very fervent bout of Russian nationalism. Any similarities to Nazi germany??? Probably.

Exactly. Nazi Germany invaded the Sudetenland, justifying their actions by claiming the region was German. Similarly, the Russians defend their aggression by arguing that they are not being aggressive, but are instead defending Russians in Georgia.

Meanwhile, the international response to the Russian invasion is also similar to the response to the Nazi invasion. 'Don't do that, but we're not going to stop you'.

[Zetetic11235]

I think Russia, though, does get the picture that they will not take the oil they are after nor will the get Georgia in the end. The best course of action now would be to bring all of the countries surrounding russia into NATO, starting with Ukraine, and totally sanction russia in every way possible, including removal from G8.

All Russia has to run on is its oil. The more we move to alternatives, the faster we could flood the oil market, we could destroy their monetary base. Especially if we can undersell them, though this probably will not be the case. If we can figure out how we might flood the market with domestic oil and maximize profit, ignore the negative impact on Saudi Arabia, or promote it as an anti OPEC measure outright, we could make this a reality. We would end up with a crippled Iran as well, perhaps we could instill a sense of unrest an find an opportunity to allow the crown prince to take up his power again. He has shown democratic intent.

This action would put the final nail in the coffin for Hugo Chavez as well, Venezuela is heavily dependent on its oil exports.