Has western social morality improved or declined recently?

[OntheWindowStand]

morals aren't redefined if they could be they would hold no meaning.

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

morals aren't redefined if they could be they would hold no meaning.

... meaning for whom? bonobo chimps? homo habilus? Neanderthals? ancient Egyptians? ancient Greeks? medieval Catholics? Zen Buddhists? ...

[OntheWindowStand]

get to the point in your post there are few things someone might think from that

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

get to the point in your post there are few things someone might think from that

... sorry if I wasn't direct enough ... are you saying that there is one absolute set of moral standards that is applicable for all time (independent of biological and cultural evolution)?

[Holiday20310401]

I think morals can't be constant due to the fact that a right from a wrong is relative to evolutions throughout humanity and society like science, technology, demogaphics, biological evolution (like paulhanke stated). But the outcome of all those is for virtue so we could look at the outcome of morals as for virtue, sort of. So virtue is constant, therefore there must be some morals that are constant that are not in relation to evolutionary aspects. Something independent of science and technology that causes virtue would be survival instinct. Its biology but not evolved from no survival instinct I think. Acheiving or diminishing emotions is also constant, like abolishing pain like torture. Therefore, it is never right to torture somebody. If the outcome is worse than torture then obviously it becomes moral.

[paulhanke]

... I can see analyzing the improvement/decline of moral standards in stable times - but as far as "recently" is concerned, aren't we in the midst of a bit of a social upheaval? aren't we still reacting to 9/11? ... in such times you might judge how well a society redefines its moral standards in response to the upheaval ...

Originally Posted by Holiday20310401

... it is never right to torture somebody.

... like I said, you might judge how well a society responds to the upheaval ... and speaking as a member of U.S. society, I think our response must be judged poorly ... Pre-9/11: we impeach a president for having an affair and lying about it; Post-9/11: we re-elect a president for starting a war and lying about it, attacking freedom and calling it patriotic, advocating torture, and on and on ...

[OntheWindowStand]

Originally Posted by paulhanke

... sorry if I wasn't direct enough ... are you saying that there is one absolute set of moral standards that is applicable for all time (independent of biological and cultural evolution)?

I think the wrapper of morality may change but the underlying values dont

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

I think the wrapper of morality may change but the underlying values dont

... I dunno ... you might get an argument from a Native American on that point - I hate speaking for a group that I don't belong to, but my impression of the Native American opinion is that Western values have been going downhill ever since the Native Americans severed ties and emigrated to the Americas roughly 12,000 years ago ... Native Americans value a sense of place, whereas Westerners only value land as a commodity; the community is valued as the fundamental unit of humanity for Native Americans, whereas for Westerners the fundamental unit of humanity is the individual; and so on ... and aren't differences in values responsible for a lot of the strife in the modern world? (e.g., terrorism?) ...

[OntheWindowStand]

I would ask you is morality a presence of mind or destination?

[paulhanke]

Originally Posted by OntheWindowStand

I would ask you is morality a presence of mind or destination?

... given those two choices, I would have to say that (for myself) morality is closer to a presence of mind - the presence of mind to see and understand that in order to live a fulfilling life I need love and friendship and community and in order to have those I need to behave in a way that cultivates meaningful and respectful relationships ... I'm sure this doesn't hold true for everyone (which is why I qualified it with "for myself") - for example, for the overwhelming majority of my family morality is closer to a destination ("Heaven") ...