The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

[mike9989]

Originally Posted by boagie

Good morning Vietnam![time warp]

This is a premise a great many people have difficulty accepting.The premise is that no matter what you chose to do or chose not to do it is still selfish.You reach for a glass of water,there is a rational then for doing so,and that rational is selfish.Someone does something kind and supposedly selfless for another,the rational goes back to what this person believes they themselves are.If the idea they have of themselves is one of a kind and compassionate human being,then they must do this action to maintain the idea they have of themselves,thus it is first selfish.The religious might find this difficult to incorporated or embrace but it is necessarily universal. I don't believe you can find an acception to this premise,you are invited to do so of course.Perhaps you can expand on this theme that would be most welcome as well.Are there any particular examples you would like to explore?

It is a dreamy moving not quite thing only the illusion is the grasp of the ring!

I find the logic here flawless in that the argument is supported by the logic used. And it is true that under this premise, all actions may be considered selfish.

If this be the case, I might just say this:
If our actions are always selfish, then getting a glass of water to relieve thirst is selfish (as mentioned originally), however, if we must be selfish to survive we must ask firstly, is selfish then, always bad necessarily? if so, what is selfish?

[boagie]

"If this be the case, I might just say this:
If our actions are always selfish, then getting a glass of water to relieve thirst is selfish (as mentioned originally), however, if we must be selfish to survive we must ask firstly, is selfish then, always bad necessarily? if so, what is selfish?[/quote]

Mike,Glad to hear from you!!

Selfishness is a relational concept as is altruism,though I think altruism is an attempt to show us a some kind of disinterested relationship with other,which in fact does not exist.True selfishness would I think serve our own interest first, once again, but it would be serveing a concept we have of ourselves which really has no relation to other.The function would be of serveing a concept which is indifferent to the welfare of others,if we think of ourselves as indifferent and that pleases us,we would act towards others to maintain that concept of indifference and that would be selfishness in the negative sense----an inability to identify with,no compassion and indifference towards others.The world perhaps of the psychopath or sociopath.Our saveing grace is our ability to identify with others,thus, compassion arises.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

Good morning Vietnam![time warp]

This is a premise a great many people have difficulty accepting.The premise is that no matter what you chose to do or chose not to do it is still selfish.You reach for a glass of water,there is a rational then for doing so,and that rational is selfish.

Don't you think that we should distinguish between what is selfish, and what is self-interested? Reaching for a glass of water is not selfish since it affects no one else adversely. I am not depriving anyone else of something that he is entitled to, as I would if there was only one glass of water available and it was meant for us both. If I took his share, then I would be selfish: but if I took my half of the glass of water, and left his for him, that would not be selfish. That would be self-interested. When I go to bed at night because I am tired, I am doing something I want to do, but how could anyone who saw me go to be say to me, "You are being selfish because you are going to bed when you are tired"? That would be silly.

[boagie]

Kennethany,

Excellent point,but I guess in point of fact that in both situtations self-interest takes priority.You are quite right though, one can serve ones self-interest without effecting the self-interest of another.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

Kennethany,

Excellent point,but I guess in point of fact that in both situtations self-interest takes priority.You are quite right though, one can serve ones self-interest without effecting the self-interest of another.

When we call some action "selfish" or call a person, "selfish", we are making a negative moral judgment about the person. We are certainly saying that he is doing something he ought not to do. But do we want to say of someone who goes to bed simply because he is tired that he is being selfish? He certainly desires to go to bed, and he is doing as he desires, but does that deserve a negative moral judgment? Of course not. Doing something you desire to do is morally neutral, Its morality depends on what it is you desire to do, not on the mere fact that you desire to do it. A person who gives charity cannot be called "selfish: merely because he desires to give charity.

The question whether someone is acting selfishly must be whether what he is doing affects adversely the interests of others, and whether whether he is being unfair. It has nothing to do with whether he is doing as he desires. And that seems to be the assumption of the view that all action is selfish action: namely that all action is done because the person wants to do that action. But that seems to me to be irrelevant.

[Dexter78]

It seems people are in agreement, the main issue here is linguistic. While all actions are self-motivated, to most, selfish actions are perceived as having a negative impact on others. If someone believes selfish means to act on one's own dersires over the desires of others, then they could view all actions as selfish without making a moral judgment. Smilies, roar! .

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Dexter78

It seems people are in agreement, the main issue here is linguistic. While all actions are self-motivated, to most, selfish actions are perceived as having a negative impact on others. If someone believes selfish means to act on one's own dersires over the desires of others, then they could view all actions as selfish without making a moral judgment. Smilies, roar! .

Whether or not others view an action as selfish, if it is not selfish, then they are wrong to view it as such.

But how could anyone rationally view my action of going to bed when tired, when it does not affect anyone as selfish? It would be irrational. Can you imagine your saying, "Well, I've had a long day, and I think I'll turn it" (in ordinary circumstances) and someone commenting, "Don't be so selfish!" (when that wasn't a joke, or just a request for your further company)? "Selfish" does not mean to act on one's desires, any more than it means to eat a poached egg. And your saying it does doesn't change matters. Words don't mean what you want them to mean. They have meanings, and you can find those meaning in the dictionary.

[boagie]

"A person who gives charity cannot be called "selfish: merely because he desires to give charity."

If one considers the rational of giveing charity it is first selfish,for prior to the inclination to action there is self-interest to served,my idea of myself as a compassionate individual.If I did not act in a compassionate way I would not be able to maintain that belief about my self.I think we all understand that not all actions like going to bed when one is tired is selfish,it is in ones self-interest however.One must be moved from within before one moves without.

"What is man" Mark Twain-----great stuff!!

http://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/wman.html

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

"A person who gives charity cannot be called "selfish: merely because he desires to give charity."

If one considers the rational of giveing charity it is first selfish,for prior to the inclination to action there is self-interest to serve,my idea of myself as a compassionate individual.If I did not act in a compassionate way I would not be able to maintain that belief about my self.I think we all understand that not all actions like going to bed when one is tired is selfish,it is in ones self-interest however.

"What is man" Mark Twain

http://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/wman.html

But as I explained, self-interestedness is not the same as selfishness. To do something selfish you have to affect others adversely and unfairly. You have to take what you are not entitled to take. As you point out some self-interested actions are not selfish. So, even if giving charity is motivated by self-interest, it need not be selfish if it affects no one adversely.

Another question, of course, is whether it is, in fact, motivated by self-interest. After all. even if it is in your self-interest to give charity (say it makes people who see you do it think better of you) that does not mean that you are doing it in order for those people to think better of you. It is one thing to do something which happens to be in your self-interest, but it is a different thing to do it because it is in your self-interest. Only in the latter case could it be called selfish, and not even then, since it may not affect any one adversely.

And neither is it true that even if giving charity makes you feel good about yourself ("to serve,my idea of myself as a compassionate individual") does that mean the action is selfish, even if it is motivated by that, and it needn't be. Again, the term here should be "self-interested", since if your action affects no one else, how can if be selfish? You are not taking anything away from someone to which you are not entitled. Also, consider this: it seems to be that a person who feels good about himself because he is helping other is a morally admirable person, not a person to be condemned by being called, "selfish".

[boagie]

kennethamy,

I am afraid you have misquoted
"A person who gives charity cannot be called "selfish: merely because he desires to give charity."

Please observe in my post this is already in quotation marks,it is not my statement,and I do not agree with it.

Kennethamy,I don't think your getting it,that no one is disagreeing with you.

The main point I have tried to make is that no matter what the nature of the action is,it is first serving the self-interest of the subject,that is,no matter what the action is.

"What is man" Mark Twain



http://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/wman.html