The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

[justinupitt]

Hmm. It would seem that this idea rises out of a misunderstanding about the definition of selfish. I agree that all action is done vis-a-vis a person having a motivation to do that action (as that is kind of the definition of action).

I think to say action is selfish is to ask what exactly selfish means, and this is were the discussion comes in I think. For me, to say that action itself is selfish is pointless, as it defeats the purpose of the word selfish. I tend to view selfish in contrast to selfless, and I tend to see those two words interacting between the action of one person to another. That is to say, someone may act selfishly to someone else, but their action itself is not selfish. These cases are generally more obviously selfish, as the action will cause the other party to lose out in order to compensate a personal gain.

It is a difficult concept none-the-less

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by justinupitt

Hmm. It would seem that this idea rises out of a misunderstanding about the definition of selfish. I agree that all action is done vis-a-vis a person having a motivation to do that action (as that is kind of the definition of action).

I think to say action is selfish is to ask what exactly selfish means, and this is were the discussion comes in I think. For me, to say that action itself is selfish is pointless, as it defeats the purpose of the word selfish. I tend to view selfish in contrast to selfless, and I tend to see those two words interacting between the action of one person to another. That is to say, someone may act selfishly to someone else, but their action itself is not selfish. These cases are generally more obviously selfish, as the action will cause the other party to lose out in order to compensate a personal gain.

It is a difficult concept none-the-less

Can't an action be neither selfish nor selfless? Suppose I go to bed because I feel tired, and I expect to have a long day tomorrow. Is that a selfish action? Why. Did I deprive someone of something to which he was entitled? Did my action even affect another? How then could it be selfish? Was it, on the other hand, a selfless action? Not that I can see. I did not do it in order to deprive myself of anything (on the contrary) nor to assist anyone.

Most of our actions are neither selfish, nor selfless. They are just (voluntary) actions.

[NeitherExtreme]

Originally Posted by Harby

Well possibly, but as you yourself stated we have no way of measuring it. Something might be done at a greater cost than benefit (and provide more benefit to someone other than ourselves), I'm not at all rejecting this possibility, I am merely stating that in order for something to be voluntarily done at all there must be atleast a bit of self-interest involved.

I can accept that. And from that point I think it's personal opinion as to how much you think a person is capable of (or willing to) consider other's benifit more than their own.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by NeitherExtreme

I can accept that. And from that point I think it's personal opinion as to how much you think a person is capable of (or willing to) consider other's benifit more than their own.

I am merely stating that in order for something to be voluntarily done at all there must be atleast a bit of self-interest involved.

If "voluntary" means, "self-interested" I suppose that is true. But that is a far cry from saying that if it is voluntary, then it is selfish. "Self-interested" and, "selfish" are two different things. Being self-interested is neutral. Being selfish is not neutral. It is wrong.

[NeitherExtreme]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

If "voluntary" means, "self-interested" I suppose that is true. But that is a far cry from saying that if it is voluntary, then it is selfish. "Self-interested" and, "selfish" are two different things. Being self-interested is neutral. Being selfish is not neutral. It is wrong.

I must say that it seems a lot of this discussion could be done just by defining terms... I'm agreeing with the "every action is self-centered" idea just enough to say this: That anyone who chooses to act selflessly (save the other guy at his own expense) makes that choice because he "wants" to do what he considers to be right, as opposed to what he would consider to be wrong. Of course in this scenario the end result is to the other guys favor and not to mine, so it is an overall un-selfish action (and motivation) IMO.

[Didymos Thomas]

But even voluntary actions are not necessarily selfish, or self-interested, or self centered (other than, perhaps, in that the individual considered the decision). Simply because an action does benefit the agent, that benefit is not necessarily the motivation for acting. The agent may even be unaware of the potential benefit of an action.

[Harby]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

But even voluntary actions are not necessarily selfish, or self-interested, or self centered (other than, perhaps, in that the individual considered the decision). Simply because an action does benefit the agent, that benefit is not necessarily the motivation for acting. The agent may even be unaware of the potential benefit of an action.

We were unaware of Gravity for a large portion of our history, did it not motivate everything to fall when dropped both when we knew of it and not?

Oh and by the way, you really should've read "What is Man?". I've found an alternate link and although it proved to be a lenghtier read than I previously thought, its equally interesting. It covers basically every single counter-argument you can concieve against this premise, theory or whatever you'd call it.

Anyway, here's the link: http://classiclit.about.com/library/...-whatisman.htm

[NeitherExtreme]

Originally Posted by Didymos Thomas

Simply because an action does benefit the agent, that benefit is not necessarily the motivation for acting.

That's a good point I think, and IMO the major flaw in the "every action is selfish" argument. The argument then simply hangs on the belief (without any argument other than personal experience or opinion) that all people are always selfish.

I hadn't seen that so concisely before, thanks Didymos Thomas.

[justinupitt]

Originally Posted by NeitherExtreme

The argument then simply hangs on the belief (without any argument other than personal experience or opinion) that all people are always selfish.

I think this interpretation is a misguided one. I do not think that selfishness as people would act selfishly (stealing the last gobstopper) applies any of its meaning to the inherent selfishness of action.

To better illustrate my point, I think of how action itself (not motivation) can be selfless (so as to not be inherently selfish).

For something to be selfless, one would think it would need to be done without knowledge of any positive reprecussions that could come from it, and with probable knowledge that in fact, negative reprecussions will come from it. If I pick up the phone and call my girlfriend, that is an action. I do not see it possible that the action is selfless. This does not mean my motivation for action was selfish, or selfless, in fact I think in this case it is neither. But the action itself accomplishes one main thing, it translates my wish to call my girlfriend (for no reason other than to talk to her) into a self fulfilling action.

This may be a better way to understand "selfish action" as it applies to all action, not that action is selfish, but that it is inherently self fulfilling, because if it weren't then the action would not have occured(unless I was forced or compulsed to, but that is a matter of free will)

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by NeitherExtreme

I must say that it seems a lot of this discussion could be done just by defining terms... I'm agreeing with the "every action is self-centered" idea just enough to say this: That anyone who chooses to act selflessly (save the other guy at his own expense) makes that choice because he "wants" to do what he considers to be right, as opposed to what he would consider to be wrong.

But what I don't understand is why the fact that a person wants to do what he does makes that action "self-centered" or "selfish". How did that happen? Only, I suppose, because that's how you decide to define it. But then, that's your definition. That's not how the words are normally used.