The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy
People can, and do, will to sacrifice themselves for others. If they die in the process, they no longer exist to be fulfilled."

Kennethamy,

At least here you are stating that something is occurring within the subject,if the hero wills his said act it must be fulfilling something,is that not logical?

"Perhaps there are some people who are about to die when they sacrifice themselves for others, outweigh the pain and fear they feel as they do so, but I would not bet that there are very many of them."

I don't mean in the case of self-scarifice that there is a conscious evalutation of the circumstance,even the prime directive is over ridden.Self sacrifice as I stated earlier is of special consideration,and that was explain in a previous post.

"Let me mention, once more, another distinction I have made: the distinction between (1) sacrificing yourself and, as a result, being "fulfilled", and (2) sacrificing yourself with the motive of being "fulfilled". Those are two very different things. But only (2) can be said to be "self-serving".

By motive do you mean a need on the part of the said hero to fulfill his will through said action--that there is intention in the action seems really obvious--what then is intended? Again there just is not the thought process, at least on a conscious level. Why can you not acknowlege that something, which is fulfilled through the said action, is the modivating force, it does not make it any less admireable, it is the height of identifying with, altimate compassion.

You wish to ignore my previous statements about self-sacrifice.I outlined how I thought the process worked, falling much in line with Schopenhaur's thoughts on the subject. Most often the hero states there was no time for thinking, indicating perhaps he was just taken with something, perhaps just as Schopenhaur explained it.

I have no idea what it is that you stuggle so against,is it really such a vile thought, that in order to make a self- sacrifice something must be happening within the subject? Your man seems to be a robot, he has this prime directive to ensure the happyness of others and carries out said directive.

I agree that there is virtue only in what is willed. But it doesn't follow that because you will it, it is virtuous.


Interesting: "what is willed", it is a need, an intent which is willed.

You have a talent for stating the obvious, Choice is the operative word, the right choice might be said too be virtue.

Can you give us some examples of ordinary actions which you believe to be selfless. I repeat again that self-sarifice requires a somewhat different understanding, and that has been outline in a past post, possiably more than once.



Arthur Schopenhauer - Essays and Aphorisms" by Penguin classics from Amazon,------You will find here also, "The Foundations Of Morality."

[boagie]

With the act of self-sacrifice we feel other people's pain and/or other peoples danger, we identify-with them, so we are still acting in aid of ourselves when we're being selfless. The concept of the self is expanded to include other. Identification-with is the bases of all compassion and compassion is the bases of all morality.

[NeitherExtreme]

Hmm... interesting reading. Just a question for boagie: Are you saying that no one can be more or less selfless, because all is selfish? If so you seem to be saying that no one can be more or less selfish either. Even if that makes some logical sense, how would you reconcile that with the real world, since we see and feel the effects of "more" selfish people?

Sorry if the question doesn't make much sense, I'm just trying to understand.

[boagie]

Originally Posted by NeitherExtreme

Hmm... interesting reading. Just a question for boagie: Are you saying that no one can be more or less selfless, because all is selfish? If so you seem to be saying that no one can be more or less selfish either. Even if that makes some logical sense, how would you reconcile that with the real world, since we see and feel the effects of "more" selfish people?

Sorry if the question doesn't make much sense, I'm just trying to understand.

NeitherExtreme,

We all wish we had an understanding of how the world works, if you see identification with as the essence of compassion, and that compassion is the essence of all morality, that is a pretty formidable understanding. Much of the behaviours of humanity can be understood with this insight. Along with the insight that the nature of reality is relational itself, perhaps it is already something that one might start to build a spiritual foundation for ones self in relating to the world. Big fish eats little fish, life lives on life, perhaps there really is nothing happening at all, as life is never threatened with utter extinction through this process. Kind of like a self maintenance program. I am not sure I satisfied your curiousity though, at which point of the process does the process not ring true for you? Think about the Yin Yang symbol, the white dot in the black the black dot within the white, nothing is absolute other but two aspects of one process.

[NeitherExtreme]

Thanks for the response!

Well, I guess on this topic of self-centered motives I just can't buy the idea that all actions are equally self-centered (if by self-centered we mean selfish). But if you said that in every action there is a least a hint of self-centered motive somewhere, I don't think I'd have too much of a problem with that. But I realize that is based on a whole lot of beliefs on which we might not completely agree.

As far as the broader picture goes, I actually started a thread about that as kind of a second introduction to myself. Check it out if you'd like...
http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum...ive-truth.html

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Fight the Power

Desire is the cause of action.

Desire cannot be anything but self-involved.

All action is selfish.

Suppose I desire to kill myself. Would my killing myself be a selfish action?
In fact, desire is not always the cause of action. For example, I do not desire to visit my sick aunt in the hospital. I dislike by aunt. I am afraid of hospitals. It nauseates me horribly to go to a hospital. I desire not to go to the hospital. Yet, I am going to the hospital. Therefore, my going to the hospital to visit my aunt is the very last thing I desire to do. So when I go, I will not be going because I desire to go. On the contrary! It will be because I have to go.

[boagie]

kennethamy,

If you still do not get it, you never will. Dancing in circles is out of fashion.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

kennethamy,

If you still do not get it, you never will. Dancing in circles is out of fashion.

What a powerful objection! I never thought of that. You mean I really only think I don't want to go to see my sick aunt, and all this nausea I feel is only an illusion? Now, that makes me feel a lot better about the visit. Thanks!

[boagie]

Originally Posted by kennethamy

What a powerful objection! I never thought of that. You mean I really only think I don't want to go to see my sick aunt, and all this nausea I feel is only an illusion? Now, that makes me feel a lot better about the visit. Thanks!

kennethamy,

Clear it all up for us kennethamy, tell us how it is! what is your theory seeing as you cannot except this one, how does this thing called compassion and morality work kennethamy, it is time you layed it all out for us kennethamy.

[kennethamy]

Originally Posted by boagie

kennethamy,

Clear it all up for us kennethamy, tell us how it is! what is your theory seeing as you cannot except this one, how does this thing called compassion and morality work kennethamy, it is time you layed it all out for us kennethamy.

Does that mean that you accept that we do not always desire to do the actions we do? For, I don't have to have a theory of action, or compassion, or morality, in order to point out that obvious fact. I do not desire to visit my aunt, and yet I am going to visit her. What part of that don't you understand?